Black Therapy! with Dr. Ed Garnes

In this episode of 'How Y'all Healing?, host Spry Lee Scott engages in a profound conversation with Dr. Ed Garnes Jr. about the healing journeys of Black and Brown communities. They explore the significance of personal healing, the role of jazz meditation in therapy, and the importance of routines in self-care. Dr. Garnes shares his experiences navigating the challenges of psychology as a black man, emphasizing the need for more black therapists and the impact of systemic racism on mental health. The discussion also touches on the importance of emotional validation, the relationship between spirituality and therapy, and the need for proactive mental health care. They conclude with resources for finding the right therapist and the importance of community support in mental health.

https://www.instagram.com/dredgarnes/
Referenced in the conversation:
https://www.instagram.com/dralfiee?igsh=MWg0OW9nNXRuYWEwdA==

https://www.medicine4melanin.com/howyallhealing

Music credits:
Intro… https://www.therelaxedmovement.com/

Outro… Jarico - Island; supported by @FreeBackgroundMusicForCreators
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC9YwmlkIQlAQPz8IY6RHnPg/featured?sub_confirmation=1

Transcript

Spry Lee Scott (00:04)
you

Hello and welcome to How Y 'all Healing. A series of conversations with healers, leaders, and organizations about their healing journey and the importance of health and wellness for black and brown people. We talk to guests about the work that they are doing to heal our communities and find out what's in their personal self -care package. I am your host, Spry Lee Scott, and this is How Y 'all Healing.

Yo, what's up, what's up, what's up? Welcome again to another episode of How Y 'all Healing. And like the intro said, I am your host, Spry Lee Scott. And as always, I'm excited to be here. I am grateful for this opportunity to not only talk to you all, but to introduce you to some amazing people that I know. And speaking of which, I want to introduce our guest for today. He is a friend of mine.

And I don't use that term loosely. This is a friend for years. And we'll get into all of that, of course. I was gonna read his bio and I decided not to read the bio but I wanna start off with a quote, if I may. it is by somebody y 'all may be familiar with.

who is also someone that I met through this friend of mine, it's Dr. Cordell West. And he says, here is the significance of my dear brother, Ed Garnes Jr. and From Afro to Sheltos Sweet Tea Ethics. there is no other group in Atlanta that can bring together such an engaged, high quality and substantial dialogue about crucial issues facing

not just the black community, but also American society. He writes well, he works hard, and revels in the life of the mind. Thank God for brother Ed Garns Jr. And again, that is a quote from Dr. Cornel West. And so without further ado, I wanna introduce you all to the founder of, Afros to Sheltos and Sweet Tea Ethics, my brother, Dr.

Dr. I love saying that. Dr. Ed Garns y 'all so welcome. Thank you. Thank you. My brother is good to be here. That was a great intro. I mean nothing else needs to be said. All right y 'all so just follow us. That was great. That was great. let's just get started man. I started off with the intro from Dr. Cornel West and

And one of the reasons why I wanted to do that is because that's one of the moments that holds a significant place in my heart.

and just in my life's journey and being able to not only meet him but to work with him. And I've had that opportunity because of you and you brought me in and you trusted me to do some work with you and for you and so I'm grateful for that. But the other part of that is I know how important your relationship was with your father. that was my last time

seeing your dad before he passed and that was years ago. and this is an ongoing healing journey that we have and so I wanna talk about that cause this show is how y 'all healing, and that was back in? That was, that Sweet Tea, version of Sweet Tea Ethics was about 2010.

My dad probably passed within the year of that event happening. Okay. Okay. And so now how am I? How are you healing? I'm in a good place with it. I'm in a good place with it. think me being a father and being deep in the trenches, I feel like he's with me every day. So I'm really at a good place now. So when I think of it, I don't think of sadness. think of I'm doing all right. Right. And then, you know, taking his lessons.

And then also remixing some things. So I'm kind of starting earlier because our relationship got better like, kind of like wine, you know what saying? So I'm starting off differently with my son and having the relationship that me and my dad had maybe the later part of our lives. I'm starting there with my son. So, you know, I really have leaned into his genius and I hear myself, I'm like, I sound just like this yeah. yeah.

Just like, I mean, if you look at pictures and basically my age, we looking like, I sound like him. So yeah, man, I think I am healed to a great degree. Right. And I share that same sentiment as far as being able to hear our parents on a regular basis through us. And it's like, you don't even have to look for them.

And you know the jazz meditation, I'm about to bring the jazz meditation back because everybody been asking for it. But you know, on my Instagram page, I do a jazz meditation. That keeps him alive too. Because a lot of those songs that I picked for the jazz meditations of the day, it's stuff that he gave.

So I feel like he's with me. He's, he's my co -pilot and I feel like I've done, my duty as a son and keeping his legacy alive. People don't understand how hard it is to be a junior. So my dad, for the uninformed, when you have a day named after you, so in the city of East Point out here in, in an ATL, it's a day named after my father.

So just think about that kind of pressure like it's Ed Garne senior day in the neighborhood I grew up in. Okay. So that's pressure. But I think that I have, I have kept his legacy alive in a good way. I'm pleased with myself. I'm pleased that he was my father.

And you know, I would never erase him from my story because I mean the counseling came from him. He had a master's in counseling. So I want to talk about the jazz meditation session. Is that a part of your regular practice? yes. So if we're talking about my particular toolbox, I don't even make it to even interview with you without jazz meditation. So yes, because I am a therapist and I see very high risk clients suicide.

just very high risk issues every day seeing six to eight people to jazz meditation is my is my constant go to to ground to myself. So yeah, so that's how it started. I've been doing this for years, but I realized that when I talked to clients and started to give them jazz, they will always say, you got a jazz meditation. I started putting

some of those things I would give clients on my Instagram page. So yes, that is part of my toolkit. I'm gonna need some jazz and a gallon of sweet tea on the side. Right. in the...

first episode when I introduced the podcast of how y 'all healing it, if you haven't heard it, please go back and listen to it. But I talk about that and I talk about how meditation is such a huge part of my practice. And I'm the same way, like I don't start my day without it. And it's because it's how I set my intentions for today and it's kind of like how I prepare myself to face whatever comes my way.

but there's also points throughout the day that I may need to go back. Yeah. yeah to meditation and pick it back up.

Was your dad a meditator he wasn't my dad, know I don't know what his go -to was. You know, my dad worked at the juvenile court for 30 years But I don't know how he did I just know you know the introduction of Herbie Hancock whole training all these people came very young for me So I don't know what he did right, but I know I got to do and it's so funny

how he didn't meditate but he's still such a big influence on your daily practice through by using a jazz meditation. the jazz meditation. mean, he was he was consistent. One of the things that I learned from my father is consistency and the necessity of having a routine. So even with little E, like we have a routine. Our mornings look the same. We'll do the same thing every time when I train him in basketball. I'm gonna have a routine when we working on math or English.

So routines were very important. So maybe my dad's way of healing and getting through things was to have consistent routines and go to. So that's one of the things that I did pick up from him. And I know when I'm out of balance, if I'm off certain routines, not like a regimented routine, but a certain flow. and I understand that because a part of having your self care package or understanding what's in your self care package is recognizing when

something is off and how to either supplement or even sometimes replace it. Sometimes it no longer works. And so now how do we have to do that? So having that routine. I've never thought about the routine part of being a part of the self care, but that's as important. I think for me it helps keep me organized and balanced because when you're dealing with clients,

You don't have control over what people bring to the table. So you have to have your own go to. So when the craziness hits and you got, you're actively dealing with a suicidal client whose life you're trying to save, you got to have something to lean on. But a part of my self care package more recently has been addition by subtraction. It's been a lot of things I've had to remove from my life, like people, mindsets and those types of things. So part of mine,

package now is the constant removal of people, things and mindsets that no longer serve. Right. And how does that release work for you, especially with people? Cause sometimes you release people and they don't want to let go. can cut off anybody. Family, friends, loose affiliates. I've had no problems cutting off in my life. My problems in life has been when that therapeutic empathy spills over to my personal life and I care too dang.

about people. the cutting off, I've never had an issue. I'm actually getting back to the former side of myself that had no problems cutting people out. But, you know, I think people have abused my empathetic flow. I've been constantly removing things, people, mindsets, things that hold me back. So, that's part of my self -care package too, is to constantly be in a state of evolution. And I know this with me and a lot of other people that I speak with, your self -care package is

always evolving. You find new things on a daily basis. so sometimes what works today may not work tomorrow. What worked yesterday may not necessarily work today. And I know you have such an interesting story and life's journey. And because we're friends, it's so much that we can talk about. It's like I'm my own mini -series. But one of the things we...

Celebrate and we laugh at I was so excited to change your name to doctor

that process process was a whole journey. I would never why well, you know, I think that What I underestimated is that my training initially was

Different than the normal training what I mean by that. So I met my mentor Dr. Joseph white when I was a great when I was working as a graduate assistant in my undergrad college, right? So dr. Joe white is considered the godfather of black psychology So my intro into the psychological discipline was from a black psychological perspective So I'm thinking this is how psychology works like you got

your white folk psychology over there and then your black psychology sits right next to it in an equal fashion, right? Then I ended up going to Michigan State and was trained by two of the top psychologists in the nation, Dr. Alfie Breland, who now goes by Dr. Alfie, make sure y 'all follow her, and then my other mentor, Dr. Robbie Stewart, right? So you got the Dr. White thing, then you got people that know Dr. White training you.

I'm in heaven. I didn't have no problems. There was a black woman over my program. So everything that I was doing, it was fine. But what I underestimated is that the discipline of psychology is probably one of the most white supremacist and racist disciplines you can be in. Because if you give a people the tools of healing and being able to understand who and whose they are, you're dangerous. So when I got to the doctoral experience,

I'm not even shouting out my school. I would shout out Cal Berkeley. Yeah, we ain't giving them no props. Cal Berkeley, I did my doctoral internship. Love y 'all. I don't even talk about the school I went to, as far as name. But what I realized is that it is hard for a black person in discipline of psychology to get through the white supremacy because number one,

They already see us inferior in higher education in the pursuit of a PhD and the psychology department of black men with my level of credentials I think was very intimidating to people in the system. I had more experience than some of my professors. So just imagine them trusting the opinion of a white person that has never seen a client.

does not have a degree in psychology and they're working in the psychology department. So just think about that. I mean, how many APA violations is there? Right. So I mean, when you are a free black person in the way that I am, it is intimidating and they took me through a living hell. mean, imagine being on academic probation after you've just completed a 4 .0 for that semester. Wow. Then the graduate school says,

You can't place him on probation because he hasn't violated any grad school, know, laws or any, any, any things within the school. We're going to make up one for you, especially, you know, just imagine being held back a year. So I didn't even graduate with my cohort cause I basically got a vote of no confidence that I was incompetent Wow. how do you deal with that

You want to smack somebody. Okay. So it takes a mentorship. So much of my journey, Dr. White was there. He passed when I was in the midst of completing my PhD, but you have to have mentors, you know, you mentioned Cornell West. So Cornell West, I tell him the story. So he comes to my university, right? geez. I love this story. So I tell him the story. I know he's listening and processing.

The first thing he does when he speaks at my school is tell the whole school to give me a round of the applause. Makes me stand up and shouts me out in front of the whole school. That's what I've learned to call a good problem. yeah. So it's kind of like the little boy that y 'all thought was incompetent is getting a co -sign from a global icon. So I appreciate him for that. But yeah, so just...

those particular experiences, the root of evil that is done to black people is to get you to not trust yourself. know, sometimes we call it gaslighting, but the most dangerous thing to white folks in just any system is a free thinking black person. the person that knows psychology cannot be duped. Right. And what makes you even double dangerous is not only are you a free thinker, but you are a

working to give other black people the ability to become free thinkers as well. Yeah, and my ability to free others is dangerous. then, know, going into my program, I'm in my 30s. I think I started my program, how old was I? Let me go back a few years, add the one. I'm mid 30s when I started my program. So you got to think about that. I've had from Afros to Shelltoes over 20.

Lord, we might be at 25 years of me doing that, know, close to that. So, you know, just think about having an organization, having a track record, coming in already with a master's degree, having worked in my field for years. I think that upsets people. Right. Because part of the doctoral process is bowing down and kissing the ring. And as you know, I'm not about to have a kiss in the ring person. Right. Right. And, and

I mean, we probably should have started with this, and of course we're not going to talk about the university, and I think it could probably be assumed a little bit on what this setup was, but can you talk a little bit about the environment there and just walking into that space? So just walking into that, always in my training, I'm one of the few black people everywhere I've gone, but I'm always the only black man.

So just imagine in a discipline that is based on white psychological theory, power dominance, mean psychology was used to prove our inferiority. It always has been. The American Psychological Association just apologized for the role that it played in racism and propaganda of inequality. Now they just apologized, a few years ago. So that tells you how the discipline of psychology has buoyed things.

in America, but the environment, you have to have people that support you. Now, the good thing is that the person that ended up being my dissertation chair fought for me. So I had at least one person that was going to ride out into the sunset with me. Absent that person, I don't make it. Because the whole hazing process was to get me to quit.

Right. then speaking of hazing, there were other incidents that could almost seem unrelated, but were related. Yeah. I had a police incident. Y 'all got pulled over by the police near campus and was held. My son and my wife is watching me be held by the police. They called for backup. been held for over an hour. I was accused of.

of stealing stuff on campus at one of little campus stores. mean, I had to keep a lawyer on speed there, okay, to get out of these things. But yeah, all of those things, you know, are interrelated. you know, what I found, and I already knew this about higher education, they only want black people at a certain level. Now, if you play sports, they'll have you, you know.

in sports but when you start venturing into intellectualism, psychology, and freeing people the last thing they want is you in that discipline. So just imagine, I mean think about this, a person that has no qualifications in the discipline of psychology is teaching in psychology and they are trusting this person's opinion over yours. This person has never seen a client, this person doesn't even have a degree or a PhD or any degree in the subject matter.

Wow, so fast forward now to Dr. Garns and looking back on it. How do you see everything that you've gone through and not just at the university but other things, how do you see those things playing a part in your

practice now and working with your clients now. it has never been about me. I think if it had been about me, I would have quit a long time ago. So what always kept me motivated on the journey is that I am getting this degree for black people and I was unapologetic about that.

My dad always taught me, the rules so you know how to break them. So when I get a patient that someone has taught, white clinician has told me has ADHD and suffering, anxiety and depression, I can now tell that person, you don't have ADHD, you have depression, anxiety symptoms, but they're not at a clinical level. You're dealing with systematic racism at your job. So I'm able.

to give people proper diagnosis who the system has forgotten about or has given them, things that don't equate to their personality. So I think that I went through that and I kept my eyes on the prize because my bigger purpose was the liberation of black people. So sometimes you have to live not for yourself because if this was a selfish endeavor,

The cost that I paid for this ain't worth it if it's just for me. Right. It's for my son. It's for people coming after me. It's for other black male clinicians to be motivated in the space where they have talked to someone that looks like them. You don't know how many black men that I have counseled. I'm the first black therapist that they've ever seen and definitely the only black male therapist that they even have heard of. Wow.

So I'm just going on an assumption here, But I'm going to assume that you might think black people should have black therapists. yes. yes. And that's one of the things that I'm able to do now is since I am a doctor, I can say things and people take them more seriously. Yes. I recommend every person with a certain paint job of African descent have

a black therapist. But now I make this preference that loves black people and frames issues from a black psychological perspective. Because what I also found on my journey, because of how we're trained in psychology, now psychology is one of the few disciplines you can be considered competent and have no cultural competence.

So you can graduate and get a master's and a PhD and not know how to deal with anyone but a white client. That's what that's how I discipline training. Right. So I have encountered some turncoat black people that I wouldn't send nobody there. I wouldn't even send my dog for a roof roof. So yes, get you a black therapist that frames from a black psychological perspective. And it also loves black people.

Right, and I remember on my journey to discover or finding a therapist for myself, that was one of the things that was important to me. what helps me out in therapy is being able to talk to someone and not having to explain, certain terms, certain things. It's like, it's...

In conversations, y 'all know how it is. Black people, people of color, there's just certain things that happen that we already have an understanding. for instance, if we say something like, okay, so the other day I was pulled over by the cops. Like we already know kind of like what anxiety comes up and what some of the feelings are surrounding.

just those red and blue lights and a siren or passing of police. Every time I hear the word, I'm like, I'm over here thinking about my police incident right now. Right. So again, I just think that it's not even about, I mean, it does go to being able to diagnose certain things, but again, just under not having to spend that extra time. We only got an hour.

in therapy and so now I gotta spend 45 of that minutes trying to explain certain terminologies. I got the funniest story that will tell you why a black therapist is necessary. So I worked for an organization that would never be named in any part of my life, right? But a major health organization. And so how questions are written are not written from a cultural perspective. So if I'm a black person and I'm in, and I am looking at

Okay, so we screen for suicide. We also screen for homicidal ideation. So there are questions that are asked. And so one of the questions is, have you ever thought about harming someone else? Now you ask a black person that what do you think they say? They normally say, yeah, I'm to smack the hell out of Keisha yesterday at work, yada, yada, yada. I cannot tell you how many times I've gotten safety alerts, meaning that

This person is either suicidal or homicidal. I mean, they about to hurt somebody. And when I actually talked to the black patient, it was a cultural misrepresentation of how they interpret the question. Wow. And then I've also dealt with people that white clinicians have said are homicidal because they're taking the words to heart. So when a black person says that they want to smack somebody, I know what they mean. So if a black person says, you know,

I don't know what's gonna happen, but something gonna happen today. I know what that means. I know that they're stressed at work as opposed to wanting to harm somebody. So I can give you about 35 different examples of just in how we screen for things and how black people answer things that they get labeled. That's why you eat a black therapist right. What is mental health?

versus what is mental illness? Well, I I think that they're they're one in the same. So so so look at your mental health in this way. So especially for black people, I look at mental health and positive mental health outcomes is the liberation of the spirit. Right. That should be the purpose. That's from a black psychological perspective, though, the liberation of the spirit. So for me, how I look at mental wellness is I look at identity. Right.

So there are some essential questions about identity that are normally trapped up in any mental health issue that we have. Those major questions from Friends for None and other black scholars are, who am I? Can I answer that question? Like, who am I? All right, so if I can answer who am I, I'm doing good. Do I show up as myself in real time? Meaning that you put me in different environments and I can still...

show up as my authentic self. So who am I? Do I show up as myself in real time? And then the other essential question of identity is, am I all that I can be? So that means am I living up to my potential? Most of the time when you look at mental health, there's some kind of fissure in either all of those questions are one of those questions. And you'll be surprised from a mental health perspective as a therapist when I'm doing that.

Initial intake and I ask a person who they are you would be surprised how many people can't even answer that basic question Wow, so who am I who am I? Do I show up as myself in real time right and am I all that I can be meaning am I Maximizing my potential do I know what my life purpose is? That's the last the final question and that's the best that's interesting because I remember years ago

I was hearing someone speak and they talked about depression and they said that depression is that gap between where your life is now and what you think your potential is. Yeah, yeah and I have another definition for you. Depression is normally ruminating over past things.

Anxiety is normally the anticipation or fear of what's to come. So that's another way of framing depression anxiety. So how do we deal with that? do we? Well, I mean, I try to strip things down to basic definitions, So anxiety is just excessive work, So when you're talking to someone and you're saying anxiety, that makes them more anxious.

So if you were in my therapeutic chair, might be like, it sounds like you have some excessive worry, Brothers Spry You start telling me about your worry, then I might say, that's anxiety. So I'm not gonna leave with telling you that's anxiety, because that's gonna make you more anxious. Or if you're depressed, I might say, well, it sounds like you're dealing with a lack of motivation. Does that sound about right? Like you not really on the job like you wanna be, your relationship is stagnant. It sounds like you're not motivated.

And then you go on and you tell your story and I say, well, you know, those are depression symptoms. So it's how you lead people to diagnosis. So I'm, I'm, when I'm dealing with a, with a, with a patient, I'm not even thinking about diagnosis. I'm thinking about their story. If I can get a person to tell their story, I can figure out how to help them. Cause no matter who comes into the room, this is especially true of black people. Everybody wants help.

That's the first thing. don't know who you are, how you identify. Everybody wants help and everybody wants to have their humanity affirmed. So if you know those two things about individuals, you can really help anybody. So what's the difference between, and I ask this specifically for my black friends, but what's the difference between going to therapy as opposed to

Having a space to vent like church. All right, you know because I feel that it's important to recognize and understand that there are some things in our history Yeah, that have that has helped us, you know and being able to vent

in spaces or having an outlet in spaces like church and with your family and different things like that. And then there's therapy. And there's this big stigma in the black community. I thought...

It was kind of like dying now, but I've realized that it's still there. -present, because all you need is Jesus. Okay, that's all you need. And the other side of that is that we think that you only go to therapy because you're crazy. It kind of goes back to our meditation, right? And this is how I see it. So going, the reason I start with meditation is so that...

throughout the day I already have the tools to kind of like deal with what comes up and I feel like that's the same thing with therapy. It's not so much, it doesn't always have to be a reactive thing. But it's kind of like a proactive thing. So let's go back So yeah, so I deal with the churchy thing and then I deal with the other part that you were saying about you don't have to go to therapy because you feel like you're crazy. So with the faith thing, I have a lot of churchy people that I have converted to the therapeutic process.

The one thing about organized religion, especially here in America, is the over emphasis on an afterlife without giving essential skills on how to navigate day to day issues. I'm praying for an afterlife and to get into heaven, but you have given me nothing to deal with Sandy in my cubicle who I want to smack the hell out of. So how does that afterlife help me?

One of the things that I do with my churchy companions in the therapeutic process is to get people to understand that emotional processing and help seeking is a skill and that those are skills that you have to develop. And for my black patients, spirituality is just one of our psychological strengths. We have other innate strengths that Dr. Joe White talks about from a black psychological perspective, improvisation.

So if you can keep your cell phone on till you get paid and you tell your, say whatever you gotta say to keep that phone on two more weeks, that's improvisation. We're all resilient. We came from a slave ship to a PhD. So that's resiliency. Connectedness to others. Spirituality is another psychological strength.

Humor is a psychological strength being able to laugh to keep from crying. So I have black people know how to laugh. I we laugh I mean just the memes okay, just meme culture So having a gallows sense of humor meaning laugh to keep from crying, which is one of Langston Hughes's Books, that's a psychological strength. So when you start to get people black people to understand

that they have essential psychological strengths innate in their being, then the therapeutic process is not coming from a deficit. It's how do we get you more focused on the innate strengths that you have? And so for churchy people, I bring them back to reality. Yes. I had a patient,

very churchy, older woman, mother in the church, wore the white gloves. She didn't want to hear nothing from my little brother. one, I'm younger, and she a mother in the church, and I think that she picked up on my heathen proclivity. She was like, little non -churchy boy. But you know, I knew enough to reach her. And so what ended up happening, I said, you have faith and you do believe in a higher power.

I said, you think, I are you a woman of faith? Do you believe things happen to move you to the next level? I said, so God of all people has given you a black therapist that understands your struggle. So look at me as a vessel of your faith. And so that was a nice intro to get her to see that.

There are some other essential skills and strengths that she had denied that was affecting her mental health because while she was praying, praying, praying, she was forgetting all these other strengths that you have to use in order to deal with life. And emotional processing is hard for black people, especially some of our elders, because you had to be strong. Right.

You couldn't show weakness, are they gonna stick the dogs on you? So when you're coming out of that kind of lifestyle, you have to let people understand that vulnerability can be a strength. So that's how I deal with the overly churchy people. I tell people, look at therapy as like when sometimes you get an oil change, they also do an inspection. So they do an inspection and tell you, these may be some other things that you might need to look for.

So we all need tune -ups, right? So look at therapy as being a proactive measure. The best time to go to therapy is when you feel there is nothing going on. Because you will start to learn to be more proactive. So you're not crazy when you go to therapy. It's that we haven't been taught to emotionally process things in productive ways. So for black people,

I try to create a space just like we're talking now where I'm not doing therapy. I'm helping to liberate you from some things that you are struggling with. Wow. Shout out to Egypt and Mike since we're in Atlanta right now. But Mike does this thing on Instagram where he talks about doing a walk of your property when you own a home.

And he said, just take a regular walk every now and again because there are some things that you may notice and you want to.

deal with those before it becomes worse. And that's what came to mind when you were talking about getting this regular tune up. because sometimes when you, when you look at a house or you look at a car, it seems like it's functioning fine and everything is okay, but they are small things that you kind of ignore. You're not paying attention to, or you might, might not even know. And I think that's what it is. Cause sometimes we don't even ignore it.

Per se sometimes we just don't know and so now Not only doing your own walk around but bringing somebody else in who is a professional that may see things you may not necessarily see I had a client one time Or actually resistant so they were forced there. I will say this this needs to be said every day of our lives Everyone can benefit

from therapeutic intervention, but everyone is not ready for therapeutic intervention. So I'm gonna say that one more time for the people. Everybody can benefit from therapeutic intervention, everyone is not ready. So we do people a disservice when we try to force it. So I had a patient that was very much resistant to the therapeutic process. So, you know, I'm kind of like a trickster. So, you know, I use all the tools in my toolbox.

on breaking the rules of what therapy is supposed to look like. So the person was resistant to therapy and so I was like, well, you can leave at any time. I said, because if you feel that you're fine, I have no purpose. No, but I want to, was like, no, if you could, why are you here? So just in having that conversation, what the individual realized, they did have things going on. And one of the things that, you know, that they were dealing with was unrealized grief.

That their major struggle in life was trying to still meet the ideals of their parents who were passed on the board. But they didn't know that that was an issue, but just in coming to therapy and talking some things out, they were able to make the connection that they've been striving for this goal that they thought their parents wanted for them, and that was their major stressor in their life. when we come to therapy, if you have the right therapist, illumination,

should happen. Like the illumination of the spirit, your purpose, what are you here for? What are the things that are stopping you? That's what therapeutic intervention needs to look like for black people.

See I agree. I think everybody can benefit from therapy. Yeah, and I am that person who likes to expose people for lack of better terms when It's something that I know that you can benefit from I want you to to be able to do so however you have folks who may be a little bit reluctant to it

so how do we, how do we get them I'm a trickster. I trick people. So, so what I do is I change the advertisement for therapy. So yes, how therapy is advertised, I wouldn't want to go. Okay. I don't like the advertisement for therapy because normally it is a white face.

Older white men glasses talking about objective introspection and so on. Yeah, so I've been noticing some depression and things. Who wants to talk to somebody like that? That's the wrong advertisement. for a person that is resistant to therapy, I normally would take this approach. Like I wouldn't say you need therapy just straight off. I'd be like, you know what? I've been noticing some things about

You seem to be struggling with some things. I don't know what those things are, but you don't seem like yourself, man. You don't seem as motivated. And then I might say, talking to people helps. And I throw myself under the bus. I might be like, you know how sometimes you could be dealing with something and then you call your friend and y 'all on the phone for two hours and you feel different when you leave? I was like, that's emotional processing.

You ever had a coach when you was playing the sport, y 'all down by 10, and the game is on the line and they give you this speech and you motivated the glory. It ever happened to you? like, yeah. I was like, that's giving you motivation, right? So you probably have had those kinds of things in your life and probably have benefited from it. So I get agreement from the person like, yeah, I coach Tommy and coach Tommy did this. And, you know, I called my friend Maurice when I'm down. I said, okay.

A therapy is just an extension of those people that you said have given you some things in your life. And normally when you let people know that they have emotionally processed before, that they have had things that are similar to therapy, people are normally less resistant to go. Have you ever?

sat in the kitchen while your grandmother was frying chicken and she got on you but it was in such a loving way, you know, she might have thrown a drumstick to get a point, but you left there feeling empowered. I was like, that's all therapy is. It is a conversation, you know, to help you move the needle. So I try to change the advertisement for therapy and normally, once you change the advertisement, black people are more prone to participate.

And what I like to help people understand as well is that it's an unbiased ear for what you're going through because even with me and talking to my friends about certain things and I have a great village and a great

tribe that I could go to and talk to about certain things, but it's still biased, because they want to make sure that they're, I guess, giving me the best. then sometimes, something that I might say may trigger something in them, whether they know it or not. And so now, a lot of times, I start getting advice.

based on them and not me. And so now with therapy and you're going in therapy, these are people who are trained to.

Listen to you based on you and nothing else the best example I give black people is the barbershop and beauty salon

And you know black people share You don't even know Linda, but you are telling Linda at the beauty shop everything, you know, I think I believe him girl I got a dude on the side that is trying to get I mean you tell everything you don't know Linda I had the barber shop You don't know Chris from Adams house care You couldn't pick him out of a lineup, but you done told this man you grieving over your dad's death at the bar That's therapeutic intervention, right?

And speaking of the barbershop, that's where we go. That's where black men go. Why is therapy so important for black men? Why do we need therapy? Specifically black We are dangerous to the system in different ways than black women. So I don't get into the competition of black men have it harder than black women. We both got it hard. Black women's Kool -Aid is orange, ours is red. Still Kool -Aid. So for black men,

We are feared by society in a different way. If you think about slavery and other things, the greatest fear is a black man rising to glory. That's the greatest fear, right? So we represent a different fear. And then a masculinity project in America is insufficient to deal with emotional processes.

These white framings of masculinity, power, domination, money, money, money, success, success, success, use people to get what you want. It is a direct value system conflict for black men. Cause none of those values from being African centered people are really our values. So anytime you take on a value,

system that is not yours. So the white masculinity definitions that we have is not a value system that we created. It's not going to work for us. So that's why it's important to get through all of these masculinity traps that do not allow for emotional expression. So in America, we are taught that vulnerability and emotional expression is a weakness and it has to be looked at as a strength. So it's important for black men, especially to get

Therapeutic intervention because a lot of times we don't emotionally process anything We just we just try to be strong we move on and for a lot of black men if I'm money, right we fine, right? So how do we get more black men into therapy? We have to train more black male therapists. So I should not in every system I'm in

be the only black person. So I have thought about systematically what needs to happen is that we really need to put money towards training other black men to be therapists. need scholarships. We need endowments that specifically focus on other black men getting trained in the discipline of psychology. Cause you have no, how in, in we've had conversations about this. It's so few people in America.

that our black male therapists that everyone's looking for. We've even had conversations, do you know somebody? I'm like, well, if they ain't in Georgia, I can only do this. You know what saying? So I think that's where it starts is making it available. And the reason why we have to come up with the funding, they don't want us there. I can tell you from my experience, they made it so hard. They almost killed me to get this degree.

Like they would rather see me dead than to have a psychology PhD. So that tells you that the key is to get more of us in the discipline. Right. And just going back to the conversation about therapy being for crazy people and it's not for crazy people, but the other part of that, and we could, could again talk about the part about the crazy people, but the other part of it.

is and the reason why they don't want to see more black men in therapy because it is such a powerful tool for us. does this no system benefits from a healed black man? A healed black man is the most dangerous proposition because if you are healed, none of the tricks of the system works. Okay, I give you an example of some negative stereotypes.

So if you are a healed black man, you understand that you need your sisters and that the black family is the most important thing. You will participate in cooperative economics if you're healed as a black person. You don't need white validation to do anything if you're a healed black person. Who benefits from that? Nobody. Money is made from forecasting the demise of black people.

So if you give black people to tools to understand that a white person can forecast my demise and I can still thrive, that's interesting, right? They don't want that. Right.

we were at our mental health best when we didn't feel like we needed white Kool -Aid. That's the most dangerous thing. We thought white Kool -Aid was sweeter. when we started, the thing that integration broke down was a black self -sufficient mindset. That was one of the ugly things about integration is that

We thought that by doing certain things that we'll be treated as equal when our equality should not have been dictated by white folks anyway. And we understood that. Your barber was black. Your doctor was black. Your dentist was black. It was black, black, black, black, black. And then if that was not the key to life, why would any time black folks do anything together, it is torn down?

Because that is the power. The power lies in our connectedness to others, which is a black psychological strength. When this interview premieres, we will be

at the beginning of October. But September was suicide awareness or suicide prevention. I have specialized training in that area. And when you think about suicide.

there's been this thing where black people don't commit suicide, but having conversations with you, I've learned that that's not true. so can we talk a little bit about the relationship.

of black people and suicide and how do we understand it and how do we work towards the prevention of it? The person that is thinking about suicide or a person who is successful in dying by suicide does not necessarily want to die, they want the pain to stop and they don't have the tools

necessary to figure it out how to make what I'm dealing with stop. The reason why I suicide is on the right, I won't say it's on the right, it's always been there, it's more vocalized and now that we have social media and other means, it's transmitted quicker now if someone has, you know, died by suicide. So what you have to understand is that remember that identity piece.

that I talked about before. This is especially true of black people, who am I? Do I show up as myself in real time? Am I able to reach my full potential? What is happening in a contemporary space is that what black people are dealing with is the lies that society have told us, right? So that we have to be a certain way. That if you're not successful, that you're nothing. If you don't have this money, you're not successful. If you look at, you know, some or more of the

high profile people that have decided to end their lives. There's normally a huge identity conflict there. We underestimate how hard it is to live a life feeling like you have to be validated in certain ways and then also feeling like you are not heard. It goes back to those two things in dealing with suicide. You can apply those two lessons I talked about earlier. Everyone wants to be helped.

And everyone wants to have their humanity affirmed. If you provide that for people, you lessen the risk. I'm not one of those people that think you can do anything to stop someone from doing it, because you can't. We don't have that power. But we can create spaces where people feel enough emotional validation that they are cared for. That's what you can do. Say that again, create spaces. We can create spaces of emotional validation where black people feel cared for.

for and providing those spaces is how we reduce suicide. Well said. And on that note, think we are... yeah, we just been running around, sitting here like, yeah, and I got 25 more things to I guess one last question. Yeah. Because I want to give people something to walk away with and this is for...

For everybody who's listening who is interested in therapy, what is the best way to move forward in taking that first step?

Well, I will say, you know, go through your network. You will normally find somebody in your network. They might not want to tell you, so you got to ask a straight up question. Hey, you've been to therapy, okay? Go to your network because your network is probably going to be the best route of getting a therapist. Most of the time when someone comes to me, they have come through my network.

So I would say your first proper starting point, people that are close to you, ask them have they been to therapy or do they know a therapist? And you'll be surprised. Now it's not a lot of black therapists, but what I have found, somewhere in your network there is a therapist or someone that knows a therapist. So just like you would come to me like, hey, I have a friend. would say first, you know, look at your network. Then there's another resource.

look at the Association of Black Psychologists website. They normally have resources per state on getting you connected with a black therapist. So your network is first. Association of Black Psychologists will be second. And then also if you have the luxury of health insurance, some health insurance companies have profiles.

You can use a resource like psychology today is a good resource, right? So you can search by your state and so for black people I will tell you to put in I would say to put in racism Think some buzzwords to see if people specialize in those kind of issues So someone if you look at their profile and they're talking about framing things from a black psychological perspective multicultural

Dealing with racial based trauma things like that is what you want to look for in a therapist you want to make sure that the black therapist that you are Seeking is a battle tested in the black experience and also Google is your friend Google and I think about with my when when my son was born and our sons are

literally four days apart. And I remember going into the bookstore and looking for books of black folks that looked like them and how hard it was. But now it's gotten so much easier and I think it's because people are more so requesting it and

The same way I see the growth in that, I see the growth in therapy that is available for black people. And there are so many organizations out there. And you said insurance. And that's one of the challenges is that a lot of people don't have the insurance. So if you don't have insurance, I mean, even if you have insurance, my suggestion to black people now is to always pay out of pocket. Cause I can tell you from working in healthcare,

They make it very hard for you to get the therapy that you need. So if you have it, pay for your therapy out of pocket so no one can control your therapeutic intervention. Most people that I know of all races that are in my network of therapists are no longer taking insurance because insurance is dictating diagnosis. So insurance company might say, Spry we only giving you five sessions for depression.

You dealing with the issue, I can't put a cap on it. I don't know how long it's gonna take you to get over depression. So if I'm dealing with an insurance company that's capping me at five, I'm hurting you. If you pay out of pocket, nobody's dictating how your therapy works.

Right and if you don't have it there are a lot of organizations out there now that offer free therapy to people in communities. A good resource I would give you is my mentor, my counseling auntie that trained me is Dr. Alfie Breland Nolan. She goes by

Dr. Alfie has a lot of resources for black folks and folks of color from a therapeutic process So I would say check her out as well. And that's Dr. She goes by Dr. Alfie if you put in Dr. Alfie and spell it any kind of way you think of she gonna come up. That's how much she is Google We'll list that on our page window

comes out as well but speaking of Instagram and social media how do you follow me on all social media I have just joined fan base Isaac Hayes the third his Isaac Hayes son has now has his own social media so fan base Instagram anything you can think of is dr. Ed Garns dr. Ed Garns and again we will have the links to all of his information

on not only the How Y 'all Healing page on Instagram, but under all of the podcasts.

that you will see. again, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for having me. Not being here. Thank you. Thank you for being here, Dr. Ed Guards. And also thank you for being a friend. Thank you for being. I'm glad that I have you in my pocket to call. And I'm glad that I get to share you with the world. So I appreciate it because I need to be shared as an independent worker.

And as always, thank you all for listening to How Y 'all Healing. Again, please follow us at How Y 'all Healing on Instagram or just go to medicineformelanin .com. That's medicine, the number four, melanin .com and find out where we are. And please like, share, follow, share this episode with your friends and family. Thank you for listening. And as always, I encourage you to choose joy, lead with love and find your peace. This is Spry Lee Scott.

I am your host, how y 'all healing?